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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 1, 2024 13:15:47 GMT
Charlie, is the restriction on towing weight on a hybrid vehicle also related to a lesser power output? My Yaris was lively enough when using the petrol and electric components of the drive, but if I'd needed sustained high power ( as when towing up a hill perhaps? ) the battery would have soon run down and left me with just the petrol engine. I'd be very interested in other peoples opinions on this thought  Oh, "opinions" - I'm quite good at those ...  Is it power or torque that you need to tow a caravan? I'd always thought that it was torque to tow and accelerate, and power for higher speed? (And you don't particularly want to tow at high speed) The hybrid is a difficult beast to gauge because the torque and power come from different sources and aren't simply additive. But, too over simplify a bit, most of the torque comes from the electric motors, while most of the sustained power comes from the petrol engine. So to compare my current 4.5 hybrid with a previous 4.4 D-CAT Auto, the 4.5 'eats' the 4.4 for torque and acceleration - they are hardly even comparable. While the 4.4 has a higher top speed that the 4.5 - primarily, I suspect, because the 2.5 petrol is tuned and geared for economy rather than outright speed. I suspect that the reason that the hybrid has a lower towing capacity than the diesel (say) is largely down to the rating of the CVT gearbox. Typically, diesel is better than petrol because it offered more torque and manual is better than automatic because it is easier to build a more robust manual gearbox. But this is not even opinion - just pure speculation! Oh, and, and, re: "but if I'd needed sustained high power ( as when towing up a hill perhaps? ) the battery would have soon run down and left me with just the petrol engine" - no, it doesn't quite work like that. If the traction battery starts to run down the car will use the ICE and MG1 (specifically) as a generator to top-up the traction battery, and help drive MG2 (and MG3 where fitted) to maintain the necessary level of torque to drag one up a hill. Sure the engine revs a bit, but that's to ensure you still have all the torque that you want ... My understanding is it’s the vehicle weight that dictates the weight it can tow which has to be within the GTW of the outfit . Quite whether that’s correct I’d be lying if I said it was. EDIT… Just checked the kerb weights the Manual is 1535Kg the auto 1605 so that differs from what I’ve been told . My understanding is the hybrids give better MPG when the batteries are charged. Especially the PHEV. Mostly because the vehicle uses its battery’s to greater effect on short journeys. When we tow we do distance so I’m assuming once the battery power is drained the car uses it’s 2.5 petrol engine which isn’t going to aid MPG .. I visit a caravan forum because these devices have much equipment and knowledge is available. Nearly all say Hybrids are not ideal for distance towing and most hybrids have lower towing limits. If the later hybrid RAV4 could do a better job than my old oil burner I’d buy one tomorrow…. It would be a complete no brainier but my car is within 200Kg or less of it’s advised limits so I have little to concede in weight. I’m not going to pretend I fully understand how the hybrid system works but I do understand how the 4X4 or AWD works and it’s ideal for towing but it’s not much fun. My old T180 on the other hand was a superb tow car. I towed a big 4 wheel Ifor loaded with scaffold a few times behind that car and it murdered the job. If it is the gearbox that’s the limiting factor then upping the power to make it pull harder wouldn’t be a good idea or am I working it out wrong ? Current power is 150 with a box added it’s 192. Tourque gains are similar. |
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Post by jasehutch on Jan 1, 2024 13:22:28 GMT
That has a good MOT record 👌
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 1, 2024 13:57:36 GMT
That has a good MOT record 👌 I cant see it ? No link ? |
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 1, 2024 14:06:40 GMT
dealer prices still on the steep side, but i will want a decent warranty.  and thats a 11 yr ld car !! wow Thats expensive. Im assuming its typical price to others ? My car is a 63 plate with every option and its on either 35 or 36K miles and I dont think its worth anything like that money. OK car prices are high but Im told by a mate whose a dealer that car prices are in free fall right now with prices starting to return to pre covid levels. Though Ive been looking at other cars ive not looked closely at what my car is worth cos I very definitely wont be trading it in and Il worry about that when I decide to sell it. |
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Post by sich1 on Jan 1, 2024 14:56:21 GMT
i thought it was high too, heard that prices were coming down but not much sign of it yet. i suppose they need a profit on what they paid for it, but still.
can get a 16/17 plate 4x4 seat/skoda for that money.
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Post by jasehutch on Jan 1, 2024 16:20:02 GMT
That has a good MOT record 👌 I cant see it ? No link ? I put the reg number that Sich put up into the MOT history app.. |
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 1, 2024 17:13:13 GMT
i thought it was high too, heard that prices were coming down but not much sign of it yet. i suppose they need a profit on what they paid for it, but still. can get a 16/17 plate 4x4 seat/skoda for that money. Honestly I’ve not looked at prices because I thought they were low…But I did this afternoon and I’m genuinely surprised at what the 4.4s are making. There are very few with low mileage and those that do are very highly priced. It kinda brings the cost of the cars I’ve been looking at into perspective….. I honestly think you’d be better off with a slightly older 4.4 with sensible miles than a Seat or Skoda, You may have to hunt around a bit but that’s the same with any car. 👍👍 |
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Post by philip42h on Jan 2, 2024 17:38:04 GMT
... my understanding is it’s to do with the weight of the car ... But it’s not the limits that do it for me it’s the way a car feels when your driving. Most of the time it’s fine with our fairly big caravan on the back but when it’s hilly it’s just not quite there. My old T180 on the other hand was a superb tow car... I’ve considered adding a tuning box to up the power but because it’s an automatic I’m hesitant to do it. If it was a manual I’d have done it as the clutch would be the sacrificial component if I pushed it to hard. You are quite correct - the legal limits are based on weights. Specifically, the GTW = GVW + Maximum permitted tow weight. The brochures and specs tend to give the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the maximum braked towing weight; the homologation plate give GTW and GVW and leaves you to work out the tow weight. Then there is the common sense guidance that the towing weight shouldn't exceed 85% of the vehicle Kerb weight. Generally that seems to be rather less than the maximum braked towing weight (but not always). So the average RAV4 can comfortably tow between 1350 kg and 1450 kg within the 85% 'rule' ... The exceptions are: - The FWD hybrids (4.4 or 4.5) that are limited to 800 kg braked, and
- the AWD 4.4 hybrid that can manage a shade over 1500 kg because it has the greatest Kerb weight of all RAV4s to date (the 4.5 is lighter).
But I was primarily responding to you comments about 'the way the car feels' - and that's really down to the available torque. The T180 had 400 Nm providing that you can stay above 2000 rpm which is rather more than any subsequent ICE powered RAV4. Your 4.4 D-CAT Auto has a mere 340, so a tuning chip would improve the 'feel'.
Calculating the torque available in the hybrids is rather more complicated - the electric motors deliver peak torque at zero rpm, while the petrol engine needs to get up to around 4000 rpm, but the net effect is a reasonably smooth torque curve.
- My 4.5 delivers 323 Nm from rest (which will decay as the speed increases) plus 221 Nm once the petrol engine gets up to speed (which it does quite quickly due the the CVT gearbox). So, I probably have around 450 Nm torque to play with which results in a 0-60 time of 8 seconds flat.
- The 4.4 hybrid AWD has a totally different set-up - only the engine capacity remains the same. It has 409 Nm from rest plus another 206 Nm from the petrol engine once it gets wound up.
All of which suggests that the 4.4 AWD hybrid is a pretty decent tow car even if its towing limit is stated at 1650 kg ... But if you need to tow more weight, you need a bigger tractor ...
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 2, 2024 18:34:06 GMT
... my understanding is it’s to do with the weight of the car ... But it’s not the limits that do it for me it’s the way a car feels when your driving. Most of the time it’s fine with our fairly big caravan on the back but when it’s hilly it’s just not quite there. My old T180 on the other hand was a superb tow car... I’ve considered adding a tuning box to up the power but because it’s an automatic I’m hesitant to do it. If it was a manual I’d have done it as the clutch would be the sacrificial component if I pushed it to hard. You are quite correct - the legal limits are based on weights. Specifically, the GTW = GVW + Maximum permitted tow weight. The brochures and specs tend to give the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the maximum braked towing weight; the homologation plate give GTW and GVW and leaves you to work out the tow weight. Then there is the common sense guidance that the towing weight shouldn't exceed 85% of the vehicle Kerb weight. Generally that seems to be rather less than the maximum braked towing weight (but not always). So the average RAV4 can comfortably tow between 1350 kg and 1450 kg within the 85% 'rule' ... The exceptions are: - The FWD hybrids (4.4 or 4.5) that are limited to 800 kg braked, and
- the AWD 4.4 hybrid that can manage a shade over 1500 kg because it has the greatest Kerb weight of all RAV4s to date (the 4.5 is lighter).
But I was primarily responding to you comments about 'the way the car feels' - and that's really down to the available torque. The T180 had 400 Nm providing that you can stay above 2000 rpm which is rather more than any subsequent ICE powered RAV4. Your 4.4 D-CAT Auto has a mere 340, so a tuning chip would improve the 'feel'.
Calculating the torque available in the hybrids is rather more complicated - the electric motors deliver peak torque at zero rpm, while the petrol engine needs to get up to around 4000 rpm, but the net effect is a reasonably smooth torque curve.
- My 4.5 delivers 323 Nm from rest (which will decay as the speed increases) plus 221 Nm once the petrol engine gets up to speed (which it does quite quickly due the the CVT gearbox). So, I probably have around 450 Nm torque to play with which results in a 0-60 time of 8 seconds flat.
- The 4.4 hybrid AWD has a totally different set-up - only the engine capacity remains the same. It has 409 Nm from rest plus another 206 Nm from the petrol engine once it gets wound up.
All of which suggests that the 4.4 AWD hybrid is a pretty decent tow car even if its towing limit is stated at 1650 kg ... But if you need to tow more weight, you need a bigger tractor ...
My RAV4 can tow according to the V5 1800 Kg. Our caravans all up weight ( MTPLM) is 1660 Kg. So we have only 140Kg to spare….. So the hybrids lower weight capabilities wouldn’t work. My car weighs less than the caravan if it’s payload is used. Internet says 1605Kg. So the 85% rule isn’t being adhered too. |
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Post by sich1 on Jan 2, 2024 19:39:13 GMT
going to watch the market for a bit and see how the prices are moving. all ready with cash if anything special pops ups though.
tks for the input and advice all.
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 2, 2024 20:40:58 GMT
going to watch the market for a bit and see how the prices are moving. all ready with cash if anything special pops ups though. tks for the input and advice all. Could be worse Stu…. In desperation I stared looking at Jimneys today because being stuck by the flooded roads is getting bloody silly now. Decent 2013 tin box Jimny can easily exceed 15K….. I don’t actually like them but we’re struggling now so my hand is being forced. if you spot anything down our way which is the Herefordshire/ Worcestershire borders you need giving the once over just shout 👍👍👍👍 |
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Post by sich1 on Jan 3, 2024 18:30:43 GMT
going to watch the market for a bit and see how the prices are moving. all ready with cash if anything special pops ups though. tks for the input and advice all. Could be worse Stu…. In desperation I stared looking at Jimneys today because being stuck by the flooded roads is getting bloody silly now. Decent 2013 tin box Jimny can easily exceed 15K….. I don’t actually like them but we’re struggling now so my hand is being forced. if you spot anything down our way which is the Herefordshire/ Worcestershire borders you need giving the once over just shout 👍👍👍👍 dont do it charlie, horrible things....lol thanks for the offer of a look if i spot something your way. |
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 3, 2024 18:48:45 GMT
Could be worse Stu…. In desperation I stared looking at Jimneys today because being stuck by the flooded roads is getting bloody silly now. Decent 2013 tin box Jimny can easily exceed 15K….. I don’t actually like them but we’re struggling now so my hand is being forced. if you spot anything down our way which is the Herefordshire/ Worcestershire borders you need giving the once over just shout 👍👍👍👍 dont do it charlie, horrible things....lol thanks for the offer of a look if i spot something your way. They were horrible things before the prices rose and even horibbiler now 🤪🤪 |
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Post by sich1 on Jan 19, 2024 17:01:20 GMT
not got a clue what to buy ....lol
looked at possible tiguan/rav4/kuga/ateca/q5/karoq/merc and now the cx5 from mazda.
bloody minefield think i will buy a pushbike and hope for the best !!
would like a rav but the price........wow.
is anyone running a 4.4 2.5 petrol hybrid what is the fuel econmoy like in real life ?
tks
stu
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Post by philip42h on Jan 19, 2024 20:20:44 GMT
... is anyone running a 4.4 2.5 petrol hybrid what is the fuel economy like in real life ? tks stu Very, very variable ... so what you'd get overall will depend very much on your journey profile. The WLTP combined 47 mpg is pretty realistic. My average over 16k miles is 44.3 mpg, but I don't do it any favours - too many short journeys where it doesn't have a chance. We live on a hill. If I drive down to the village (in the summer) I can easily get 70 mpg, but if I hurry back up again I'll get something in the low 20s. Local journeys in the winter return numbers in the 30s. A longer journey on A roads will give figures in the 50s. So what you'll get will depend very much on your journey profile but it's a lovely thing to drive so I don't care either way! Edit: and then I reread the question - I'm running a 4.5 rather than 4.4 ... doh! |
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