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Post by simonb82 on Apr 15, 2022 5:43:07 GMT
I’m looking at changing my current diesel SUV and looking at a RAV4 however I cannot decide if I would be best with the PHEV or the regular Hybrid
Twice a week I have an 80 mile round trip commute to work. Is the PHEV economy the same as the regular Hybrid once the electric only range has been used or is it worse as it’s heavier with the bigger battery
The commute is about 50% motorway (70mph) and about 50% 40mph but with a large amount of traffic. What sort of economy would I expect?
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Post by firemac on Apr 15, 2022 7:41:38 GMT
I’m looking at changing my current diesel SUV and looking at a RAV4 however I cannot decide if I would be best with the PHEV or the regular Hybrid Twice a week I have an 80 mile round trip commute to work. Is the PHEV economy the same as the regular Hybrid once the electric only range has been used or is it worse as it’s heavier with the bigger battery The commute is about 50% motorway (70mph) and about 50% 40mph but with a large amount of traffic. What sort of economy would I expect? Welcome to the club. We have a 20-reg hybrid doing about 6-7K miles pa. Mixed driving, fairly regularly m-way, a-road trips around the area and urban. Currently getting 42.8 mpg without trying very hard and I expect this to go up as the temperature improves; it seems to run in battery more in the warmer weather.👍 |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 15, 2022 7:46:33 GMT
It's really difficult to get sensible economy figures for the PHEV on ICE, but I'd assume that it is broadly the same as the HEV - there's no evidence (that I have seen) that suggests that is significantly worse.
The HEV will do around 47 mpg at a constant 70 mph - I've watched it do that on the motorway. At variable speeds up to 40 mph it will do much better - I'd guess at around 55 mpg but that really will depend on the traffic and your driving style. Over rural journeys I can get up to 60 mpg - I've seen 71 mpg but that was mostly down hill. Over very short journeys I might see only 30 mpg - which a PHEV will do on no fuel at all. Actually calculating what you are likely to get is remarkably difficult and needs a fairly detailed knowledge of your whole journey profile.
All that said, you are unlikely to be able to arithmetically justify the increased cost of the PHEV on the grounds of economy alone. Better to have a PHEV just because you want one (and can afford it in the first place).
I'm assuming here that you are not a company car driver and this would be a private purchase - the sums are rather different for company car drivers.
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Post by Hoovie on Apr 15, 2022 9:14:18 GMT
What is the actual difference between a "PHEV" and a "HEV"?
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Post by philip42h on Apr 15, 2022 9:37:42 GMT
What is the actual difference between a "PHEV" and a "HEV"? The PHEV is shorthand for the RAV4 plug-in hybrid; the HEV is the RAV4 self-charging hybrid. The HEV has a relatively small traction battery and all electric power comes from running the ICE to generate electricity. The PHEV has a larger traction battery and an onboard charger so that it can be charged from the mains to give a pure EV range of around 50 miles (give or take). It also has a more powerful front electric motor so that it can get up to motorway speed on pure EV - with the HEV the ICE will start to kick in around 20 mph however carefully you drive. The PHEV is a couple of seconds quicker to 60 mph. And, perhaps surprisingly, the lists of equipment and options varies between the HEV and the PHEV - there is no Excel grade car in the PHEV (while there is in the HEV in the UK). There are other more obvious difference like the heat exchanger system in the PHEV and the ability to precondition the car etc. |
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Post by Hoovie on Apr 15, 2022 11:15:38 GMT
What is the actual difference between a "PHEV" and a "HEV"? The PHEV is shorthand for the RAV4 plug-in hybrid; the HEV is the RAV4 self-charging hybrid. The HEV has a relatively small traction battery and all electric power comes from running the ICE to generate electricity. The PHEV has a larger traction battery and an onboard charger so that it can be charged from the mains to give a pure EV range of around 50 miles (give or take). It also has a more powerful front electric motor so that it can get up to motorway speed on pure EV - with the HEV the ICE will start to kick in around 20 mph however carefully you drive. The PHEV is a couple of seconds quicker to 60 mph. And, perhaps surprisingly, the lists of equipment and options varies between the HEV and the PHEV - there is no Excel grade car in the PHEV (while there is in the HEV in the UK). There are other more obvious difference like the heat exchanger system in the PHEV and the ability to precondition the car etc. Thanks. To me, the PHEV makes a lot more sense. For my own typical driving pattern, the PHEV, with a range of around 50 miles would mean the petrol(?) engine would be used very rarely (I actually average around 50 miles a WEEK, not a journey! But of course with that level of use, the extra saving on petrol would be massively outweighed by the extra cost of the purchase). The HEV using the engine to charge the battery seems to be just delaying/offsetting when fuel is used and possibly, as it will also use regenerative braking presumably to charge the battery, 'reward' inefficient driving. Driving in a economic way, predicting lights, traffic and speed limit changes, will give little charge into the Battery and it just ballast to a degree. I am sure I am oversimplying things there as the original Prius was a "HEV" I think and that was pretty successful  |
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Post by firemac on Apr 15, 2022 11:31:22 GMT
The PHEV is shorthand for the RAV4 plug-in hybrid; the HEV is the RAV4 self-charging hybrid. The HEV has a relatively small traction battery and all electric power comes from running the ICE to generate electricity. The PHEV has a larger traction battery and an onboard charger so that it can be charged from the mains to give a pure EV range of around 50 miles (give or take). It also has a more powerful front electric motor so that it can get up to motorway speed on pure EV - with the HEV the ICE will start to kick in around 20 mph however carefully you drive. The PHEV is a couple of seconds quicker to 60 mph. And, perhaps surprisingly, the lists of equipment and options varies between the HEV and the PHEV - there is no Excel grade car in the PHEV (while there is in the HEV in the UK). There are other more obvious difference like the heat exchanger system in the PHEV and the ability to precondition the car etc. Thanks. To me, the PHEV makes a lot more sense. For my own typical driving pattern, the PHEV, with a range of around 50 miles would mean the petrol(?) engine would be used very rarely (I actually average around 50 miles a WEEK, not a journey! But of course with that level of use, the extra saving on petrol would be massively outweighed by the extra cost of the purchase). The HEV using the engine to charge the battery seems to be just delaying/offsetting when fuel is used and possibly, as it will also use regenerative braking presumably to charge the battery, 'reward' inefficient driving. Driving in a economic way, predicting lights, traffic and speed limit changes, will give little charge into the Battery and it just ballast to a degree. I am sure I am oversimplying things there as the original Prius was a "HEV" I think and that was pretty successful I’m surprised at how often the EV mode kicks in on the HEV. Certainly around town at speeds up to about 40mph the car runs mostly in EV. And as I said, circa 43 mpg in our mixed driving and without being eco-anal seems pretty good to me given the size of the car and its performance.👍😊 |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 15, 2022 11:39:13 GMT
The PHEV is shorthand for the RAV4 plug-in hybrid; the HEV is the RAV4 self-charging hybrid. The HEV has a relatively small traction battery and all electric power comes from running the ICE to generate electricity. The PHEV has a larger traction battery and an onboard charger so that it can be charged from the mains to give a pure EV range of around 50 miles (give or take). It also has a more powerful front electric motor so that it can get up to motorway speed on pure EV - with the HEV the ICE will start to kick in around 20 mph however carefully you drive. The PHEV is a couple of seconds quicker to 60 mph. And, perhaps surprisingly, the lists of equipment and options varies between the HEV and the PHEV - there is no Excel grade car in the PHEV (while there is in the HEV in the UK). There are other more obvious difference like the heat exchanger system in the PHEV and the ability to precondition the car etc. Thanks. To me, the PHEV makes a lot more sense. For my own typical driving pattern, the PHEV, with a range of around 50 miles would mean the petrol(?) engine would be used very rarely (I actually average around 50 miles a WEEK, not a journey! But of course with that level of use, the extra saving on petrol would be massively outweighed by the extra cost of the purchase). The HEV using the engine to charge the battery seems to be just delaying/offsetting when fuel is used and possibly, as it will also use regenerative braking presumably to charge the battery, 'reward' inefficient driving. Driving in a economic way, predicting lights, traffic and speed limit changes, will give little charge into the Battery and it just ballast to a degree. I am sure I am oversimplying things there as the original Prius was a "HEV" I think and that was pretty successful  With my 4.3 diesel manual and 4.4 diesel auto I got around 37 mpg. With the 4.5 HEV I'm getting around 45 mpg. The common factor here is the driver and driving style ...  It does benefit from regenerative braking but that doesn't really offset inefficient driving - if you drive "too fast" and brake "too late" you will wind up using real brakes rather than regenerative ones. The real gain, I believe, is in running the engine at peak efficiency and generating electricity almost as a by-product of using the ICE to drive the car along. If I stick the car into cruise on the motorway the engine will run continuously and the car will harvest energy going down hill and deploy that again on the next rise. The efficiency benefits are derived from a mixture of the CVT gearbox so that the engine is always running at peak efficiency (unless you stamp on the loud pedal) and the ability to deploy the electric motors whenever a bit more shove is needed. By driving economically, predicating hold-ups, coasting to a stop and not racing away at the traffic lights (OK, I try very hard NOT to race away at the traffic lights) you can maximise the benefits of regen and the torque of the electric motors. All in all it works very well and makes for a very comfortable and relaxing drive. Of course, both HEV and PHEV benefit from pretty much the same hybrid characteristic (once the PHEV traction battery is depleted). When I bought my HEV the equivalent (and inferior spec'd PHEV) would have cost me around £10k more - that was both £10k I didn't have and could never recover in terms of running costs. The cost difference is down to around £4k now so it is a more 'interesting' dilemma for potential purchasers. For company car drivers it's a no brainer - if the PHEV is available on the car scheme have one - the BIK on a PHEV is less than the BIK on a HEV so the PHEV works out cheaper!!!! |
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Post by Hoovie on Apr 15, 2022 12:13:15 GMT
Is there any different between the PHEV and HEV in terms of things like "congestion" charges and low emmision zones?
As an aside, when I was at the garage hanging around waiting on a service on my Corsa, I was speaking to a Salesman about the e-Corsa and I think the same spec Electric Corsa would have taken around 10 years or more to pay back the extra cost. Think I will have to wait until used prices have come down!
Coming back from the Dentist yesterday I reset the computer and found on that 20 mile journey I was averaging 55MPG, which will do me for a Petrol Car.
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Post by philip42h on Apr 15, 2022 13:00:51 GMT
Is there any different between the PHEV and HEV in terms of things like "congestion" charges and low emmision zones? As an aside, when I was at the garage hanging around waiting on a service on my Corsa, I was speaking to a Salesman about the e-Corsa and I think the same spec Electric Corsa would have taken around 10 years or more to pay back the extra cost. Think I will have to wait until used prices have come down! Coming back from the Dentist yesterday I reset the computer and found on that 20 mile journey I was averaging 55MPG, which will do me for a Petrol Car. I think that it rather depends on the zone in question - for some there is no difference since the PHEV isn't a pure BEV; for others the lower WLTP emissions count in the PHEV's favour. But there are no such zones near me (or places I want to be). In terms of trips to the dentist, I managed 49.2 mpg (over almost 40 miles) last week - which really isn't too shabby for something the size of the RAV and with the aerodynamics of a brick ... which, coincidentally, corresponds pretty well to the OP's twice weekly commute ... |
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Post by jasehutch on Apr 15, 2022 14:11:43 GMT
68mpg in the Yaris today.. |
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Post by firemac on Apr 15, 2022 16:29:54 GMT
68mpg in the Yaris today.. Yes, Jase, but coasting downhill doesn’t count. 🤣🤣 |
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 15, 2022 17:15:53 GMT
68mpg in the Yaris today..  Not a bad number and a very nice car but I can get 60 out of the wee GTI if driven steadily. Same with the Ravs the extra MPG is cool obviously but look at the price of the Hybrid or the plug in. It’ll take forever just to recoup the extra cost cos let’s face it a plug in is mega money now. One of my wife’s friends has recently bought a 17 plate Hybrid and he’s really disappointed in its running costs. Blokes a tool to be honest and perhaps he was expecting more but the 40 he’s getting is unremarkable. Unless the users mileage is super high it’ll take forever to get the outlay back if it’s even possible. One of my mates has just bought a Jag I pace which has a cracking real life range of 200+ miles but 85K and it’s a mid range car…… |
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Post by firemac on Apr 15, 2022 18:48:43 GMT
68mpg in the Yaris today.. Not a bad number and a very nice car but I can get 60 out of the wee GTI if driven steadily. Same with the Ravs the extra MPG is cool obviously but look at the price of the Hybrid or the plug in. It’ll take forever just to recoup the extra cost cos let’s face it a plug in is mega money now. One of my wife’s friends has recently bought a 17 plate Hybrid and he’s really disappointed in its running costs. Blokes a tool to be honest and perhaps he was expecting more but the 40 he’s getting is unremarkable. Unless the users mileage is super high it’ll take forever to get the outlay back if it’s even possible. One of my mates has just bought a Jag I pace which has a cracking real life range of 200+ miles but 85K and it’s a mid range car…… I think the I-Pace is probably one of the coolest looking cars on the road right now. But its reliability is absolutely appalling. |
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 15, 2022 20:20:46 GMT
Not a bad number and a very nice car but I can get 60 out of the wee GTI if driven steadily. Same with the Ravs the extra MPG is cool obviously but look at the price of the Hybrid or the plug in. It’ll take forever just to recoup the extra cost cos let’s face it a plug in is mega money now. One of my wife’s friends has recently bought a 17 plate Hybrid and he’s really disappointed in its running costs. Blokes a tool to be honest and perhaps he was expecting more but the 40 he’s getting is unremarkable. Unless the users mileage is super high it’ll take forever to get the outlay back if it’s even possible. One of my mates has just bought a Jag I pace which has a cracking real life range of 200+ miles but 85K and it’s a mid range car…… I think the I-Pace is probably one of the coolest looking cars on the road right now. But its reliability is absolutely appalling. Completely irrelevant Jim 85K is stupid …… |
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