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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 15:55:15 GMT
Been getting a bit of a noise for last couple of weeks whenever car driven over a drain grill or bit of a pothole. Sort of noise where a nut isn't tightened and so allowing movement of a part.
After crawling around underneath and finding nothing, took the wheels off this morning to get a better look and found a piece of the spring sitting in the "cup" (not sure what the proper name is) that supports the lower end of the coil spring. So the noise was that piece bouncing in the cup with the shock of the wheel hitting a bump and making a metallic noise when it landed (test drive with it taken out elimnated noise).
Now I had earlier watched a Youtube video on how to replace the springs on a Vauxhall Corsa (as suspected spring could be a culprit) and I saw the springs on these are pretty long things.
The length of the bit broken off is about 5" and maybe 1/5th of one 'turn' (and there are around 5 coils/turns), so I am wondering if the amount broken off is really significant and if there is any rush to get a new spring fitted considering this is a very low use car (we do maybe 2500 miles a year?).
It looks fairly straightforward to replace, but relatively time consuming - so a garage at £100/Hour would end up a bit expensive and they would want to use OEM parts.
To DIY it, parts are around £30 a pair of springs but would need a spring compressor which I don't have so would be an extra expense.
So given it is only a short end piece, do I need to care that much about it? car drives perfectly fine and is not acting differently left to right side.
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Post by charliefarlie on Aug 6, 2022 16:16:45 GMT
I’m fairly sure it’s an MOT fail David so should really be replaced. 👍👍
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 16:27:00 GMT
I’m fairly sure it’s an MOT fail David so should really be replaced. 👍👍 How would an MOT tester know anything is broken though? you really cannot tell the difference in the cars attitude or how it drives (talking about a very small end section away, not a break in the middle) |
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Post by charliefarlie on Aug 6, 2022 16:39:55 GMT
I’m fairly sure it’s an MOT fail David so should really be replaced. 👍👍 How would an MOT tester know anything is broken though? you really cannot tell the difference in the cars attitude or how it drives (talking about a very small end section away, not a break in the middle) Can’t answer that one David. Maybe they wouldn’t spot it but that’s wasn’t what I meant. If something is wrong with a car that would make it fail an MOT then it’s better sorted. 👍👍 Some folk cut springs down in an attempt to lower a car and that’s fine as long as they’ve been CHR equally. So there is the option of cutting the other spring down so they match. It’s not how I would fix it but an option nonetheless 👍👍 Edited to add…. David an example of how easy it is to pull the wool over an MOT testers eyes sometimes is my leaky shock…. I knew it was leaking very slightly because I’d seen it….I could have simply wiped the pair of them and I bet they wouldn’t have noticed especially if I’d jet washed around them. But my circumstances are that I’m looking albeit casually for a new caravan and it crossed my mind that towing a 1600Kg caravan with a knackered shock wasn’t a good idea. Your use as you say is entirely different 👍👍👍 |
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 16:58:12 GMT
I certainly wouldn't chop the other to match to save the cost of buying a new one. But a lot of people - and garages - would say no need to replace both springs if one breaks. And surely having one old and one new would cause a degree of difference in a similar way? talking not cutting down one or two coils to lower, but around 3% reduction in the overall length (and mean length and not spring height) If this was likely to be an MOT fail then absolutely I would replace, but given there is no change on how the car drives as far as I can see and we never drive on anything other than standard roads ... It is just a pain to change it and if there is no real need? I changed the springs on my VW T4 and that was so easy to do in comparison with no compressors or the like needed. These coilover setups are a PITA in comparison. Ref your caravan towing example and shockers. No argument there :TU: .... I just had a repair done to my Motorhome rear brakes couple of weeks ago.... hit four figures repair cost  but some of that was optional. It was the drivers side that had the main problem but the passenger side looked like needed similar work in the future so told them to do that side as well. Driving a heavy >3.5t van, just like a car+caravan outfit, you want confidence in your vehicles safety so any doubts need to be sorted. |
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Post by charliefarlie on Aug 6, 2022 17:27:26 GMT
I certainly wouldn't chop the other to match to save the cost of buying a new one. But a lot of people - and garages - would say no need to replace both springs if one breaks. And surely having one old and one new would cause a degree of difference in a similar way? talking not cutting down one or two coils to lower, but around 3% reduction in the overall length (and mean length and not spring height) If this was likely to be an MOT fail then absolutely I would replace, but given there is no change on how the car drives as far as I can see and we never drive on anything other than standard roads ... It is just a pain to change it and if there is no real need? I changed the springs on my VW T4 and that was so easy to do in comparison with no compressors or the like needed. These coilover setups are a PITA in comparison. Ref your caravan towing example and shockers. No argument there  .... I just had a repair done to my Motorhome rear brakes couple of weeks ago.... hit four figures repair cost  but some of that was optional. It was the drivers side that had the main problem but the passenger side looked like needed similar work in the future so told them to do that side as well. Driving a heavy >3.5t van, just like a car+caravan outfit, you want confidence in your vehicles safety so any doubts need to be sorted. One of the things advised when changing shocks is too always do both sides. The Haynes online guide also demands changing the mounting bolts X 4….. The last time I had a broken spring was on a Ford Focus and that was when we lived in Scotland. It failed the MOT and I hadn’t realised it was broken, At that time I was advised to change both but I would have anyway. Im not skilled or knowledgeable enough to say if your cars safe or not. I expect given the state of our roads there are many riding round with broken springs in blissful ignorance that they have one. Me I would get it done and forget it 👍👍 |
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Post by three5 on Aug 6, 2022 17:53:03 GMT
Been getting a bit of a noise for last couple of weeks whenever car driven over a drain grill or bit of a pothole. Sort of noise where a nut isn't tightened and so allowing movement of a part. After crawling around underneath and finding nothing, took the wheels off this morning to get a better look and found a piece of the spring sitting in the "cup" (not sure what the proper name is) that supports the lower end of the coil spring. So the noise was that piece bouncing in the cup with the shock of the wheel hitting a bump and making a metallic noise when it landed (test drive with it taken out elimnated noise). Now I had earlier watched a Youtube video on how to replace the springs on a Vauxhall Corsa (as suspected spring could be a culprit) and I saw the springs on these are pretty long things. The length of the bit broken off is about 5" and maybe 1/5th of one 'turn' (and there are around 5 coils/turns), so I am wondering if the amount broken off is really significant and if there is any rush to get a new spring fitted considering this is a very low use car (we do maybe 2500 miles a year?). It looks fairly straightforward to replace, but relatively time consuming - so a garage at £100/Hour would end up a bit expensive and they would want to use OEM parts. To DIY it, parts are around £30 a pair of springs but would need a spring compressor which I don't have so would be an extra expense. So given it is only a short end piece, do I need to care that much about it? car drives perfectly fine and is not acting differently left to right side. David, what would worry me about this type of failure is the resultant lack of bearing area at the bottom of the spring where it sits in the "cup". Most coil springs, including the ones fitted to motor vehicles have flat ends. They are created by either grinding the last turn of the spring flat, i.e. at right angles to the spring axis OR, as is usually done with cars, altering the bend on the bottom turn of the spring so that there is a flat surface at right angles to the axis of the spring.
If you've lost a length off the end of the spring it is no longer presenting a flat surface to the inside of the cup. The effect of this is that the load in effect become eccentric to the axis of the spring AND has a lesser bearing area on the cup. If it had happened on my RAV the guy who I use for MOT's would definitely pick it up - but he is particularly good at his job. Probably not what you wanted to hear - Sorry!
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Post by charliefarlie on Aug 6, 2022 18:15:10 GMT
Been getting a bit of a noise for last couple of weeks whenever car driven over a drain grill or bit of a pothole. Sort of noise where a nut isn't tightened and so allowing movement of a part. After crawling around underneath and finding nothing, took the wheels off this morning to get a better look and found a piece of the spring sitting in the "cup" (not sure what the proper name is) that supports the lower end of the coil spring. So the noise was that piece bouncing in the cup with the shock of the wheel hitting a bump and making a metallic noise when it landed (test drive with it taken out elimnated noise). Now I had earlier watched a Youtube video on how to replace the springs on a Vauxhall Corsa (as suspected spring could be a culprit) and I saw the springs on these are pretty long things. The length of the bit broken off is about 5" and maybe 1/5th of one 'turn' (and there are around 5 coils/turns), so I am wondering if the amount broken off is really significant and if there is any rush to get a new spring fitted considering this is a very low use car (we do maybe 2500 miles a year?). It looks fairly straightforward to replace, but relatively time consuming - so a garage at £100/Hour would end up a bit expensive and they would want to use OEM parts. To DIY it, parts are around £30 a pair of springs but would need a spring compressor which I don't have so would be an extra expense. So given it is only a short end piece, do I need to care that much about it? car drives perfectly fine and is not acting differently left to right side. David, what would worry me about this type of failure is the resultant lack of bearing area at the bottom of the spring where it sits in the "cup". Most coil springs, including the ones fitted to motor vehicles have flat ends. They are created by either grinding the last turn of the spring flat, i.e. at right angles to the spring axis OR, as is usually done with cars, altering the bend on the bottom turn of the spring so that there is a flat surface at right angles to the axis of the spring.
If you've lost a length off the end of the spring it is no longer presenting a flat surface to the inside of the cup. The effect of this is that the load in effect become eccentric to the axis of the spring AND has a lesser bearing area on the cup. If it had happened on my RAV the guy who I use for MOT's would definitely pick it up - but he is particularly good at his job. Probably not what you wanted to hear - Sorry!
Some testers are over the top though. I had an advisory on my MX5 this year.  I kid you not the two bushes looked absolutely fine. There was no visible play or cracking. Yet they advised. Unfortunately they were not a DIY job as the front sub frame required dropping down a couple of inches to get the damn things out. Cost of replacement was £670 inc VAT….. That’s blooming cars eh. But at least they’re done now 👍👍 No laughing at my annual mileage please 😜😜😜 |
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 18:32:04 GMT
I did a quick search on eBay for "spring compressor tools" and looks like plenty to chose from for £20 or less, so I think at that price, I'll do the spring swap myself (and do both sides as well assuming the first goes to plan) :TU:
any recommendations anyone has for a tool set (bearing in mind this is for a one-off job so looking for affordability)
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Post by unclebob on Aug 6, 2022 18:33:49 GMT
I’m fairly sure it’s an MOT fail David so should really be replaced. 👍👍 How would an MOT tester know anything is broken though? you really cannot tell the difference in the cars attitude or how it drives (talking about a very small end section away, not a break in the middle) I’ve seen many broken springs in my mot testing days, and the chance of the spring having a clean break straight across the coil is very rare . So a tester should spot it . The safety recommendation would be to replace the springs as a pair , as if one has broken ..the other won’t be fair behind doing the same 👍🏻 |
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 18:36:39 GMT
David, what would worry me about this type of failure is the resultant lack of bearing area at the bottom of the spring where it sits in the "cup". Most coil springs, including the ones fitted to motor vehicles have flat ends. They are created by either grinding the last turn of the spring flat, i.e. at right angles to the spring axis OR, as is usually done with cars, altering the bend on the bottom turn of the spring so that there is a flat surface at right angles to the axis of the spring.
If you've lost a length off the end of the spring it is no longer presenting a flat surface to the inside of the cup. The effect of this is that the load in effect become eccentric to the axis of the spring AND has a lesser bearing area on the cup. If it had happened on my RAV the guy who I use for MOT's would definitely pick it up - but he is particularly good at his job. Probably not what you wanted to hear - Sorry!
Some testers are over the top though. I had an advisory on my MX5 this year. I kid you not the two bushes looked absolutely fine. There was no visible play or cracking. Yet they advised. Unfortunately they were not a DIY job as the front sub frame required dropping down a couple of inches to get the damn things out. Cost of replacement was £670 inc VAT….. That’s blooming cars eh. But at least they’re done now 👍👍 No laughing at my annual mileage please 😜😜😜 I had the same kind of thing on my Celica GT4. Toyota garage said had a worn bush on one side and was an MOT failure, but the only way to fix was a complete mounting, and if doing one side, the other had to be done as well. think I was quoted around £700? and this was in 1992, so what would that be at todays prices?? Took it to a Japanese Sports Car specialist to see what they would charge to fix .... told me yes it was a bit worn but not a problem and not an MOT fail either. |
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 18:44:17 GMT
How would an MOT tester know anything is broken though? you really cannot tell the difference in the cars attitude or how it drives (talking about a very small end section away, not a break in the middle) I’ve seen many broken springs in my mot testing days, and the chance of the spring having a clean break straight across the coil is very rare . So a tester should spot it . The safety recommendation would be to replace the springs as a pair , as if one has broken ..the other won’t be fair behind doing the same 👍🏻 Does/can an MOT tester actually see the ends of a spring in situ with the wheels in place? I looked at the springs the other day with the wheels still fitted and I could not see this detail at all. It was only after I took the wheels off and put my hand into the "cup" I could feel the end of the spring was not at the dropped end of it. |
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Post by charliefarlie on Aug 6, 2022 18:49:43 GMT
Some testers are over the top though. I had an advisory on my MX5 this year. I kid you not the two bushes looked absolutely fine. There was no visible play or cracking. Yet they advised. Unfortunately they were not a DIY job as the front sub frame required dropping down a couple of inches to get the damn things out. Cost of replacement was £670 inc VAT….. That’s blooming cars eh. But at least they’re done now 👍👍 No laughing at my annual mileage please 😜😜😜 I had the same kind of thing on my Celica GT4. Toyota garage said had a worn bush on one side and was an MOT failure, but the only way to fix was a complete mounting, and if doing one side, the other had to be done as well. think I was quoted around £700? and this was in 1992, so what would that be at todays prices?? Took it to a Japanese Sports Car specialist to see what they would charge to fix .... told me yes it was a bit worn but not a problem and not an MOT fail either. Yes complete concur.. Problem for me was it’s on record for all to see as an advisory. The main reason for getting it done straight away is I might just get up one day and decide to sell it. I’ve been checking out bigger more comfortable convertibles but none are as much fun to drive. Reality is my wife can’t get in the MX5 though so I’m being a bit selfish keeping it not that she complains cos she doesn't. We can disagree with an MOT testers decisions and complain but it’s a bit heavy duty and involves a Ministry inspector testing the cars…… Hiding to nothing me thinks, 👍👍 |
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Post by Hoovie on Aug 6, 2022 18:50:05 GMT
David, what would worry me about this type of failure is the resultant lack of bearing area at the bottom of the spring where it sits in the "cup". Most coil springs, including the ones fitted to motor vehicles have flat ends. They are created by either grinding the last turn of the spring flat, i.e. at right angles to the spring axis OR, as is usually done with cars, altering the bend on the bottom turn of the spring so that there is a flat surface at right angles to the axis of the spring. [/div]If you've lost a length off the end of the spring it is no longer presenting a flat surface to the inside of the cup. The effect of this is that the load in effect become eccentric to the axis of the spring AND has a lesser bearing area on the cup. If it had happened on my RAV the guy who I use for MOT's would definitely pick it up - but he is particularly good at his job.[/div] Probably not what you wanted to hear - Sorry!
[/quote] Just a comment on one bit specific to my car ... just looked at the section that has broken ... totally round the whole length. Maybe the shape of the spring is matched to the shape of the cup - and in this case, both are round? |
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Post by unclebob on Aug 6, 2022 18:50:48 GMT
I did a quick search on eBay for "spring compressor tools" and looks like plenty to chose from for £20 or less, so I think at that price, I'll do the spring swap myself (and do both sides as well assuming the first goes to plan) any recommendations anyone has for a tool set (bearing in mind this is for a one-off job so looking for affordability) Not many jobs on cars would worry me but coil springs alway need the greatest of respect . I was using £600 style equipment so the risk to myself was minimal. Of the cheap DIY ones available, this "two claw" top and bottom limits the risk of the tools slipping round the same side of the spring under tension. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155011091104 |
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but some of that was optional. It was the drivers side that had the main problem but the passenger side looked like needed similar work in the future so told them to do that side as well. 
