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Post by philip42h on Dec 13, 2021 15:15:41 GMT
I'm nowhere near sure, but I suspect that if they had red flagged the race there wouldn't have been an opportunity to restart - too much of the race distance had already been covered? And that would have handed the title to Hamilton, which, given the lead he had built up by that time wouldn't have been desperately unfair. Alternatively, and reasonably, they could have deployed the safety car as they did to clear away the wreckage. Red Bull were quite within their rights to come into the pits - ceding track position for a more competitive car. And once the track was clear, they could have resumed the race at the earliest opportunity. Giving Max a probably a couple of laps in which to get the job done but an additional five cars to pass under blue flags in the process. That would have given Max a fighting chance, but also given Lewis a break. What they did was manoeuvre the five lapped cars out of the way, thereby reducing Lewis lead to zero (and even less than that as Max was getting over eager but that is of precisely no matter). This left Lewis with little more than a snowflakes chance, and, as you say, fabricated the end to the championship. That said, neither team did anything desperately 'wrong' during the race - Red Bull were tactically more aggressive; Mercedes were tactically more conservative - and, bar the 'fix' at the end the race would have shown that once again the Mercedes was the faster car on that circuit. As folk have already noted, Mercedes have won the Constructors title, again, demonstrating that they do have the fastest car across the season as a whole. And that is really the point of Formula 1 - to build and race the fastest car within the rules laid down by the formula. But for the viewer, it is very pleasing to note that the gap to Red Bull is now really quite small and there are other teams showing definite progress - which bodes well for future seasons. And the 'fix' handed the Drivers title to arguably the fastest driver on the circuit this season. One may or may not like / approve of Max's racing style but he is certainly quick and gets the best out of the car he has. And, to that extent, the result is OK ... F1 will never should who is really the best driver since, by definition, they don't compete on an equal footing. Lewis has won several titles by being the better driver in a Mercedes - he may, or may not, have been the best driver across all competitors. But for the fans, and the teams, the FIA need to sort out a set of relatively clear and unambiguous rules that result in fair racing and that allow the best team to win. If they want more mayhem, they could always skip qualifying in favour of a reverse grid start - championship leader starts at the back etc. But that would be a very different sport! A Red flag would not have prevented the race from restarting at all. There is no rule that states you cannot restart the race again and complete the allocated number of laps. ... but there used to be back in 1994 (I think) - races weren't restarted once they were 75% complete (or something like that) - said I wasn't sure ...
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Post by Hoovie on Dec 13, 2021 16:32:32 GMT
A Red flag would not have prevented the race from restarting at all. There is no rule that states you cannot restart the race again and complete the allocated number of laps. ... but there used to be back in 1994 (I think) - races weren't restarted once they were 75% complete (or something like that) - said I wasn't sure ... There was a race earlier this year that had very similar circumstances .... in Baku the race was Red-Flagged near the end and restarted with just one or two laps to go. And the explanation Michael Masi gave for the Red Flag rather than Safety Car would have been even more appropriate for the "Championship" Race in Abu Dhabi 'When asked why Verstappen's accident warranted a red flag but Stroll's similar accident [earlier in the race on lap 30] only warranted a safety car, Masi stated that he wished to resume racing after Verstappen's accident had been cleared, but there were insufficient laps remaining and insufficient time to clear Verstappen's accident under safety car conditions.'
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Post by davrav on Dec 13, 2021 20:24:12 GMT
... but there used to be back in 1994 (I think) - races weren't restarted once they were 75% complete (or something like that) - said I wasn't sure ... There was a race earlier this year that had very similar circumstances .... in Baku the race was Red-Flagged near the end and restarted with just one or two laps to go. And the explanation Michael Masi gave for the Red Flag rather than Safety Car would have been even more appropriate for the "Championship" Race in Abu Dhabi 'When asked why Verstappen's accident warranted a red flag but Stroll's similar accident [earlier in the race on lap 30] only warranted a safety car, Masi stated that he wished to resume racing after Verstappen's accident had been cleared, but there were insufficient laps remaining and insufficient time to clear Verstappen's accident under safety car conditions.'Will you be appearing for Mercedes in the 'Mercedes against the FIA' case Hoovie?
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Post by Hoovie on Dec 13, 2021 21:20:34 GMT
There was a race earlier this year that had very similar circumstances .... in Baku the race was Red-Flagged near the end and restarted with just one or two laps to go. And the explanation Michael Masi gave for the Red Flag rather than Safety Car would have been even more appropriate for the "Championship" Race in Abu Dhabi 'When asked why Verstappen's accident warranted a red flag but Stroll's similar accident [earlier in the race on lap 30] only warranted a safety car, Masi stated that he wished to resume racing after Verstappen's accident had been cleared, but there were insufficient laps remaining and insufficient time to clear Verstappen's accident under safety car conditions.'Will you be appearing for Mercedes in the 'Mercedes against the FIA' case Hoovie? I think the end of the race was a farce. I know people say it was a race and even Masi said "it's called motor racing, Toto", but F1 is very much a rules-driven formula, and Mercedes (and all teams) Strategies are planned out and done with the rules that are in place in mind. So to have a FIA representive tear them up at the end was a joke! I thought the way Senna won the Championship in 1990 by deliberately running into Prost in the last race was bad enough (especially as he announced what he would do before hand IIRC), but I think the the race on Sunday is a contender for most unsavoury ending ever (you can have bad luck endings for sure and seen plenty of those and races lost on the last lap, but contrived ones like this is just not right). I wanted Lewis/Mercedes to win the championship, but always in a fair way. If the position was reversed, Max in front and Masi did what he did, I would feel just as annoyed and think Max was robbed of the Race Win. PS. The way Lewis stayed on track and didn't have to give a place .... I'd call that "Brazil Payback". What you reap is what you sow, Max. And Perez's holding back of Lewis to let Max catch up ... brilliant driving and for me, that made him the Driver of the Day.
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Post by widge on Dec 14, 2021 8:31:24 GMT
The reality is there was no solution to the problem, continuing the race behind a safety car after the track was clear, would have handed the race to Hamilton like wise letting or not letting all the backmarkers through, even red flagging the race would have probably stopped the race due to time and limited laps left. At least what happend is the race resumed with Hamilton in the lead, I know slim but there was still a possibility that Hamilton might have managed to hold off vestafen. If you can tell me that if the drivers had been reversed the arguments from the teams/ fans would not have been the same(but reversed) then so be it.
It was a shame it happened this way but I have not seen any clear cut arguments that support a better solution without race control definitively deciding who won. Roll on next year.
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Post by Hoovie on Dec 14, 2021 11:10:13 GMT
Red flagging for track clearance would have allowed the race to restart with multiple laps left (just like in Baku earlier this year). Time was not a factor in any way, it was purely down to laps remaining
I don't think "handing the race" to Hamilton is very accurate either considering he was ahead and in control of the race with just a few laps to go.
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Post by jasehutch on Dec 14, 2021 13:23:37 GMT
Red flagging for track clearance would have allowed the race to restart with multiple laps left (just like in Baku earlier this year). Time was not a factor in any way, it was purely down to laps remaining I don't think "handing the race" to Hamilton is very accurate either considering he was ahead and in control of the race with just a few laps to go. This would have surely been the best option..
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Post by firemac on Dec 14, 2021 13:25:22 GMT
Red flagging for track clearance would have allowed the race to restart with multiple laps left (just like in Baku earlier this year). Time was not a factor in any way, it was purely down to laps remaining I don't think "handing the race" to Hamilton is very accurate either considering he was ahead and in control of the race with just a few laps to go. This would have surely been the best option.. Makes you kinda wonder why they didn’t go down that route???🤔
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Post by davrav on Dec 14, 2021 16:27:59 GMT
This would have surely been the best option.. Makes you kinda wonder why they didn’t go down that route???🤔 Masi panicked :yes:
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Post by widge on Dec 14, 2021 16:43:20 GMT
This would have surely been the best option.. Makes you kinda wonder why they didn’t go down that route???🤔 Although I agree that in hindsight a red flag and a restart might have been the fairest and from a spectator point of view the best end to the race. But my understanding is that red flags are normally only used in the case of danger to the drivers, marshals or spectators due to an accident or weather conditions, this was not the case, we had an incident that would not normally warrant a red flag, it was too serious to use the virtual safety car (which might have been an even better scenario) so normal practice is to send out a safety car. If the accident had been cleared slightly quicker the back markers would have all been sent through as normal, and Max would have still ended up right behind Hamilton on soft tyres and probably won the race. In that case a red flag would have favoured Hamilton. Without a crystal ball nobody was in a position to forsee what was going to happen.
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Post by Hoovie on Dec 14, 2021 19:01:38 GMT
I reckon the outcome of this race will not be changed, however lots of lessons will have been learned from the farcical way it ended as well as many other events throughout the season.
The ones I can think of off the top of my head .....
* Team Principals not allowed to lobby Race Director during the race. Masi should have stamped on that right away ages ago.
* The Basic Racing Rules clarified and simplified and not open to interpretation and negotiation with the teams during a race.
* Previous policy of using Safety Cars to clear crashes within last x laps (maybe 10 or so? Depends in the total lap count in the race) automatically replaced by Red Flag Restarts if the FIA want to have a policy of "Racing to the end of the race". Safety Cars due to weather probably stuck with.
* Tyre Changes in Red Flag periods to be reviewed. Tricky one to manage though. As everyone can change tyres, at least it is fairly equal although some with a recent stop will lose out a bit.
* Tyre Changes in Safety Car (actual or virtual) periods to be reviewed. It is a lot easier to manage the "cheap stops" by implementing a mandatory delay when a car comes in before car can be worked on (similar to the 5 or 10 second penalties that are already in place), the actual delay time pre-calculated per circuit so a Yellow Flag stop is no better or worse than a normal stop. Yes, the "Cheap Stops" can mix a race up and add excitment it could be said, but is it a motor race or is it a lottery that is wanted?
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Post by widge on Dec 14, 2021 20:15:37 GMT
A Red flag would not have prevented the race from restarting at all. There is no rule that states you cannot restart the race again and complete the allocated number of laps. ... but there used to be back in 1994 (I think) - races weren't restarted once they were 75% complete (or something like that) - said I wasn't sure ... It should be easy work out the difference in time between a normal tyre change and under the safety car/v safety car and force teams to add it to the stop time like is done for a penalty. Sorry this should have a comment on hoovies previous post
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Post by unclebob on Dec 15, 2021 13:47:53 GMT
Well done to Lewis for receiving a knighthood today from Prince Charles 👏🏻👏🏻
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Post by unclebob on Dec 15, 2021 22:01:22 GMT
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Post by firemac on Dec 15, 2021 22:26:50 GMT
Still taking the knee , I see.😕
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