steverav4me
Club Member
RAV4.3 SR D-CAT Auto 4WD 2011 facelift model.
Posts: 81
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Post by steverav4me on Jul 12, 2019 15:58:17 GMT
I have a couple of questions regarding code grabbers.
1) Is there a way - or more importantly a currently available piece of equipment that can detect a code grabber? ie detect when someone is using a code grabber in attempt to gain entrance to a keyless car?
2) How effective have you found inserting your keyfob into the various 'blockers' like bags, tin boxes, aluminium boxes etc etc so that its signal is not detectable by a code grabber? There's various fixes on youtube but as is normally the case, they all vary in their effectiveness? What do you know?
3) Any other comments or suggestions regarding warding off a code grabber attack? Anyone been on the receiving end of an attack?
Apologies if this subject has been discussed before, but maybe my specific questions are relevant anyway.
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Post by anchorman on Jul 13, 2019 7:25:34 GMT
Shcm might be the one to answer this but as I understand, keep your keys away from the periphery of the house, tins and cooking foil do work but they just aren’t pretty but even an upstairs wooden drawer is probably good enough.
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Post by davidwilson on Jul 13, 2019 10:28:49 GMT
Shcm might be the one to answer this but as I understand, keep your keys away from the periphery of the house, tins and cooking foil do work but they just aren’t pretty but even an upstairs wooden drawer is probably good enough. Not sure about the upstairs wooden drawer - the distance would help but I believe the idea of the tin is to produce a 'Faraday cage' where there is no electric field inside. So put the keys inside a metal tin or inside a metal gauze and all should be well. Do the same for your second set. I am quite pleased not to have this problem with my car. When I lock the car I always check the door handles to make sure - with the 'keyless' entry car I had in the past I had to check the rear doors because the front ones would always just open! |
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Post by philip42h on Jul 13, 2019 10:48:10 GMT
Shcm might be the one to answer this but as I understand, keep your keys away from the periphery of the house, tins and cooking foil do work but they just aren’t pretty but even an upstairs wooden drawer is probably good enough. Not sure about the upstairs wooden drawer - the distance would help but I believe the idea of the tin is to produce a 'Faraday cage' where there is no electric field inside. So put the keys inside a metal tin or inside a metal gauze and all should be well. Do the same for your second set. I am quite pleased not to have this problem with my car. When I lock the car I always check the door handles to make sure - with the 'keyless' entry car I had in the past I had to check the rear doors because the front ones would always just open! ... so, in a tin, in a draw, upstairs, in the centre of the house ... and definitely not hanging conveniently on a hook by the front door!  As I understand, the key continuously transmits a weak signal that the car responds to. The thief / hacker simply picks up that signal and transmits it again when closer to the car. You just need to make sure that the thief can't pickup the signal in the first place. So here we have an invention, that we probably didn't need, that makes cars even less secure than before. In hindsight, it's a really obvious deficiency and you'd have rather hoped that car manufacturers would have realised before they went into production. I suspect that all they needed to do is add an on/off button on the key ... but that might have made it all too complicated for the modern motorist! |
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Post by Paulus17 on Jul 13, 2019 15:25:00 GMT
We found that just putting the fob/keys in a tin don't work but once I wrapped the tin in tinfoil it did work.
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Post by shcm on Jul 13, 2019 22:44:08 GMT
As I understand, the key continuously transmits a weak signal that the car responds to. The thief / hacker simply picks up that signal and transmits it again when closer to the car. You just need to make sure that the thief can't pickup the signal in the first place. and you'd have rather hoped that car manufacturers would have realised before they went into production. That's not quite how it works and as for car manufacturers, maybe at some point, I'll tell you a tale about one and this type of system, that goes back 20 years. |
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Post by philip42h on Jul 14, 2019 12:05:03 GMT
That's not quite how it works Well that certainly helps clarify matters - thank you ...  |
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Post by davrav on Jul 14, 2019 12:37:55 GMT
That's not quite how it works Well that certainly helps clarify matters - thank you ...  If he tells you he'll have to kill you :yes: |
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steverav4me
Club Member
RAV4.3 SR D-CAT Auto 4WD 2011 facelift model.
Posts: 81
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Post by steverav4me on Jul 14, 2019 15:20:08 GMT
Right. A lot of very general and frankly, at times plainly incorrect advice there chaps!
Putting the key fob into 'a tin', that is to say, a steel 'tin' such as a tobacco or biscuit tin, does not work. I've tried it, and if I take the tin to the car, I can open it in the normal keyless mode by just using the door handle in the normal way. That tells me that signals are getting through from the fob that could be picked up by a code grabber.
After wrapping the keys in aluminium foil - either insulated from the foil using kitchen roll or not (it doesn't seem to matter) - if I then take the keys to the car it does not allow keyless access, indicating that signals from the fob are being blocked by the more electrically conductive aluminium.
Clearly, wrapping the 'car keys' in foil every the time you get home is not a practical option. So, it would seem that a box made out of ali or copper will do the trick. Alternatively, line a steel box with aluminium foil.
I'll do further experiments and report back. At the end of the day the 'fix' has to be practical and easy to use. So I'm thinking about a box that is big enough to get your hand in easily, that has a swing up, non-locating lid and is made of, or lined with ali or copper.
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Post by davidwilson on Jul 14, 2019 20:26:32 GMT
Wrap it in mumetal
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Post by firemac on Jul 15, 2019 8:26:47 GMT
At the end of the day the 'fix' has to be practical and easy to use. Ahem, a good old-fashioned key without all the comms crap works just fine. No need for tins or tin foil, etc. They should shoot the fool who came up with this keyless entry bolloks. |
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Post by shcm on Jul 15, 2019 10:28:02 GMT
Right. A lot of very general and frankly, at times plainly incorrect advice there chaps! Putting the key fob into 'a tin', that is to say, a steel 'tin' such as a tobacco or biscuit tin, does not work. I've tried it, and if I take the tin to the car, I can open it in the normal keyless mode by just using the door handle in the normal way. That tells me that signals are getting through from the fob that could be picked up by a code grabber. After wrapping the keys in aluminium foil - either insulated from the foil using kitchen roll or not (it doesn't seem to matter) - if I then take the keys to the car it does not allow keyless access, indicating that signals from the fob are being blocked by the more electrically conductive aluminium. Clearly, wrapping the 'car keys' in foil every the time you get home is not a practical option. So, it would seem that a box made out of ali or copper will do the trick. Alternatively, line a steel box with aluminium foil. I'll do further experiments and report back. At the end of the day the 'fix' has to be practical and easy to use. So I'm thinking about a box that is big enough to get your hand in easily, that has a swing up, non-locating lid and is made of, or lined with ali or copper. I'm not disputing your results, but I suspect there is more going on there than you think. Some friendly advice is don't kid yourself. For many, this is not an easy subject to master, despite what you might see on "youtube". It's more than just the school text-book far-field shielding stuff that many will quote. Many Engineers have spent many hours banging their head against seemingly contradictory measurements and I'll gladly include myself in that (although on many occasions I've been asked to help out with EMC problems when others were struggling). For a start, if you do nothing else, read the last paragraph and the bottom of the page, below the quiz question, here: learnemc.com/shielding-theory...and with reference to that, despite what you might think, the stuff involved with this IS VERY inefficient radiation sources. If I get time, maybe I'll write a bit more about these system and their flaws, but I'm not sure there's a complete, short, simple explanation, so I may be wasting my time.  |
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steverav4me
Club Member
RAV4.3 SR D-CAT Auto 4WD 2011 facelift model.
Posts: 81
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Post by steverav4me on Jul 15, 2019 10:33:21 GMT
At the end of the day the 'fix' has to be practical and easy to use. Ahem, a good old-fashioned key without all the comms crap works just fine. No need for tins or tin foil, etc. They should shoot the fool who came up with this keyless entry bolloks. I - like everyone - see the problem that keyless entry has brought about. I see that. However, unless you have used keyless entry you will not know how great a tool it is and how easy it makes life for you. Yes, it has heralded major security problems, but these are surmountable. I'm presently just looking for the most practical versions thereof. In short, if a code grabber cannot 'see' your key fob, then your car is as secure as anyone else's. So, for indoors I'll use some kind of aluminium/copper box that the keys can easily be 'thrown' into (no messing about with tight fitting pouches), and if I'm sitting in a restaurant with my car in the car park outside, then yes I'll slip my key fob into a shield pouch. I mean, if we're talking about electronic means of entry or burglar alarms, then there will always be dedicated criminal experts who can overcome such stuff. In short, if anyone is that worried, fit a mechanical device such as a Krooklok or Disklok. You can't drive a car away if you cannot turn the steering wheel. |
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Post by phaeton on Jul 15, 2019 13:49:12 GMT
You can't drive a car away if you cannot turn the steering wheel.
There is always a way, if they are determined & the payoff is large enough they WILL take your car, so you just have to do enough to make them take somebody else's instead. Personally I think keyless is great, but neither of my cars fitted with it would fetch £4K so I just hang the keys in a cupboard at the back of the house each night.
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Post by bothwellbuyer on Jul 17, 2019 5:44:01 GMT
wow- some of you have real problems!!
I am lucky. Despite my wifes daily prayers that my vehicle would be stolen/never recovered, I have not had a problem with forced entry to my vehicle.
Access is available without a key from either the drivers door or the passenger door.....the keyless system works perfectly. I leave the key and fob in a drawer in my hall (too much info?). Unsurprisingly,the key has no effect on the doors and access is available to anyone passing by.
And to be honest, the keyless ignition system can be bypassed by rudimentary use of a paperclip.....
However I do have a hidden battery switch which kills all the power including that to the ignition; lights; preventing hot wiring
The vehicle?
Its the 1954 Bedford RL (green goddess). Bifold doors don't lock but snap shut and will take a persons hand off if an attempt to open them wrongly is tried. The ignition switch is a primitive key similar to any other old car; gym locker;filing cabinet and I keep my key and its wooden fob handy in a drawer in case I lose the paper clip. The battery double pole switch lives beside the battery and if anyone aged 65 or more would know, the battery is not under the bonnet, nor in the boot, nor in a side locker. Younger thieves would struggle without an O-level in history.
With said paper clip, and switch activated, its a two-handed operation to start the engine as the starter is an arms length away from the ignition switch, with the left foot required to hold the choke open....thats if the first theft protection device is disabled- ie getting it out of 1st gear and releasing the handbrake whilst using the right foot to carefully sooth the accelerator pedal.
With all this done, it starts first time with a puff/cloud of black smoke/exhaust fumes as it begins swallowing petrol tampered with lead additive....in the hope that whoever is doing this has read the warning manual on the dangers of lead.
To steal the vehicle will need careful use of the steering mechanism to avoid attaching the neighbours fence to the rear overhang, given the vehicle is parked within 2 inches of his fence. The lack of power steering will ensure that any unsuspecting thief will be unable to steer out of the driveway in one manouevre (spelling?) and will flatten the roses of the garden across the road, creating enough noise to waken most of the street.
So, I don't have a problem with wrapping the key in aluminium foil; a cigar box; or hidden in the oven. However as a precaution, I keep the paperclip in my pocket. I mean, what thief carries a paperclip nowadays???
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